Time Keeping

[XNavyDrummer]

...Bill is amazing! It's his approach to time and the groove that first caught my attention. He plays with a great command of the pocket and always musical! His first album as producer took a grammy. He invited me to a session to hear him record with Abe and Alex years ago...very impressive!

[sean b. tinio]

originally posted by: blake1

I can play with a click all day and never faulter, but take it away and put a few musicians with different concepts of time and everything goes to h!$# !
I find playing jazz is easier since my movements are smaller. But in rock when I'm playing with a much more dynamic range things can get a little pushed or pulled.
Time should be internalized so the physical part shouldn't matter. It's just when playing live when the adrenaline kicks in, the time (pulse in my head) can get confused.
Anyone have this problem?
I have a tendency to slow down now because I've heard my self rush so many times in recordings. Now I'm slowing things down ever so slightly.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i thought i was the only one having problems w/ it... i really like what Steve said about "NOT enjoying playing it but ENJOY listening to it"... but what about playing live and i dont hear my self anymore too loud mixes (when no monitor is available)?.. sound techs here are not as brilliant as yours....

another problem i have keeping time, when a fellow musician speeds up (worse the Bass player or even vocalists)... im not saying i have perfect time and putting the blame on them.... sorry but it happens..

originally posted by: Andy Vermiglio

We don't play in a vacuum and are influenced by those around us. If we focus on complementing the sounds around us and those sounds start to rush or drag, we'll be influenced to follow. In these cases you have to make a choice:

Do I flow with the subtle time change?
OR
Do I stand my ground and say "no this is where the pocket is" even though this may result is an obvious (or not so obvious) clash in tempos between players?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and i choose to go w/ the changes... the result... tadaaaa!!

originally posted by: sashal3

What about feel? How many times is the drummer the scape goat for tempo changes. I think everyone should have good time.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img]

just wanting to vent my own aaaarrrrgggghhh expiriences!!! [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

[phillippowers]

Blake1 or whoever...

I have struggled w/ the same problem about being able to nail a click and then not being able to play w/ certain musicians and hold it down. Here's what I've figured out about that. There are basically two approaches to playing w/ other musicians. Either you come from a REACTIVE standpoint or a PROACTIVE standpoint. My problem when I was struggling with this problem alot was that I was TOO 'reactive.' Playing w/ a click all the time in your practice routine can turn you into a 'too-reactive' player by default. You are relying on something else (in this case the click) for your timing source. It is very important to be able to play w/ a click, but, it's also just as important, if not more important, to be able to play IN TIME without one. So, if you are playing w/ a band you (being the drummer) have to be equal parts proactive and reactive. If you are playing w/ people that have bad time (which I have had to do quite a bit) you absolutely HAVE to be more PROACTIVE. The standpoint that I like to look at is. I try to play everything from the point of view of being able to play perfectly in time and changing/loosening up the feel if that's what is called for. If you are playing out of time by default that's not necessarily a good thing. Try to come from the standpoint of KNOWING where the time is really at and base everything off of that.

One example with me is: I have this bass player that I've played w/ since I first started playing. He has naturally perfect time and I mean PERFECT time. The nature of my learning and progression was playing time w/ a click..and if it wasn't w/ a click it was with this bass player. So, this bass player was pulling me along, he was my timing source and he and I could and can play perfect time together. But, as I started to play w/ other people it took me a couple of years to figure WHY I couldn't play in time w/ other musicians...everything was rushing, dragging, and basically doing whatever it wanted--I had no control over the time whatsoever. I had a great teacher that explained to me that my playing was almost TOO reactive and not enough proactive. I respond to all the little subdivisions that I might hear the bass player, or guitar player do within the groove and it pushed and pulled me EVERYWHERE! So, I put 2 and 2 together and figured out that when I am playing w/ people whose time is weak, I need to be a little more proactive and take the initiative to dictate where the time is at. Now, if you find that this is your problem and you try to take a more proactive focus---Please do not forget about still being a reactive player as well.

So...with that all out of the way, here are a few things that have helped my timing alot:

1)First and foremost: Playing along w/ CDs, playing along w/ a click, etc. REPETITION (play one groove at one tempo for long periods of time)

2)Dane Clark (Mellencamp/Studio drummer) has his students do an exercise w/ straight-eighths rock grooves. Basically, play quarters w/ your left foot on the hihat-but, also play the straight-eighths w/ your R.H. on the hi-hat as well. The thing you should listen for is making sure that there aren't any open hihat sounds...it will REALLY get you playing your left foot exactly on the quarter note..it sounds like a weird exercise, but, try it, I guarantee it'll mess with you. When you can do it cleanly w/ quarters on the left foot hi-hat, try it w/ 8ths on the LFHH.

3)Another thing that Dane Clark has really busted me on in lessons is actually playing 'Straight-Eighths' grooves. So many drummers play a 'bucks' like pattern (accent/tap) on the hihat without even thinking about it. When you play a straight-eighths groove try to do it w/ equal volume for each eighth note LOUDLY for rock stuff. A good example of how this can affect a groove is Kenny Aronoff on Michelle Branch's "Everywhere" Listen to the pre-chorus. Kenny lays down straight-eighths there like nobody's business and it totally makes the song in my opinion. Anyway, if you get used to doing this, it helps out your timing alot for Rock stuff. You monitor your Right Hand when doing this and things will fall into place.

4)Here's one method that I've found to be VERY helpful for being proactive first and reactive second if that's your problem. Set the click to 100bpm or so--(quarter notes ONLY please.) The exercise is just 3 measures of SIMPLE 4/4 rock *bass drum on 1 and 3, snare on 2 and 4, straight-eighths on the hihat* and then 1 measure of 15/16. So it's a just a 4 measure pattern...the last measure you are just cutting the 'a' of 4. Okay this is a good exercise because for the second cycle the pattern the click will be on the 'e's. The third cycle, the click will be on the 'and's. The fourth cycle of the groove, the click will be on the 'a's. Then it starts itself back right on the quarter note. This exercise helps you become PROACTIVE because you have to push the time and be confident with KNOWING exactly where the time is for the click to fall in the right place when you go through the whole cycle. After you have achieved this ability, the next step is to set the click to half notes at 100bpm (or quarters at 50bpm same thing basically). There are not as many clicks there for you to rely on w/ the half notes so you have to be confident w/ where the time is at or you will fall flat on your face. The next step is to set the click to whole notes at 100bpm. (One way to do this is just turn everything off except for the loud '1' that your metronome will give you..like on a Dr. Beat or a Tama Rhythm Watch for example). If you can do this...your timing with straight rock beat should be pretty solid. If it's not...you have a free pass to punch me in the face 6 times.

Anyway, sorry for this extremely long post, but, please let me know if this works for anybody on here. And I am looking for some more tips as well...I like all the ones that are on here so far.

[beats]

Such an awesome topic. As the drumset is the centerpiece of time.

I'm comfy about my time at present. I never used 2 be. Ive had my confidence supremely tested when i was 'greener' with deveoping good time after 'leaving the basement/shed' and learning to play with other people in a live/rehearsal/studio setting. Really it began when i (as my first teacher got me into the best habit of doing)got 2 hear myself with my first bands in high school, live, and the studio. It revealed itself that i had a habit of rushing fills (before and after setting up a part, and certain phrasings). I was so shocked and humbled that i really started to obssess about it. So from that point on until now heres what ive come up with, and some concepts ive developed for myself; many that are mentioned by most of you too, to help my time:

When i first started, my shedding consisted of lesson work, but most of the time was spent playing along with records (mainly-by genre-,new wave of the 80's(really early electronica), jazz, pop, punk rock, some selected funk, and hip hop of the day, and John Williams soundtrack music(i played Tympani/Snare in concert band in high school). My father used 2 be a radio DJ, so i had an enourmous record collection 2 draw from. All i wanted to do was drum. I never even conceptualized clearly that my main role was to frame the time/feel/and pulse. Ahhh Teen-agerisms.

Then after forming bands and trying 2 operate as one(by way of live/studio/rehearsal playing)and hearing and seeing results by way of taping audio and video, i began to develop better time.

In my ongoing carreer ive found that:

-guitarists generally have great time, as do MC's with skills. Bassists ive worked with, until recently, have not so good time. Same as classically trained pianists,and vocalists, awful awful time. Conducters think they have good time, but they're full of shit. Most creative jazz instrumentalists express thier time 'elastically', but ive found that they do know good metronomic time. And they like to, as previously expressed, play on top of the beat.

-being in a band with the same people for many years WILL help everyones time.

-capturing live off the floor drum takes with everyone hearing the click, or even just me with the click reference, never seems to work. Even though fluctuations(which is why i hate this method of recording) with the other instruments can be fixed with a dope Protools engineer, this method for, purely political reasons, is unacceptable to me. which brings me to..........

-drummers ARE NOT the sole bearer of time keeping. I feel that we are the 'peace officers of time keeping' within a band. Everyone must be accountable for good time. I want to be the one on the lookout if the time is strange and work together to fix the issue intead of having a philisophical discourse about who is to blame, if other players feel that im the solo guide to the time. If that unnacceptable to someone in any band ive been involved with then i will inflict 'FURIOUS ANGAH!!' on them. I worked WAY TOO DAMN LONG to develop my time, i can only expect the same respect afforded to me as a drummer , if other instrumentalists practice to achieve decent time keeping skills.

-metronomes= NO! Drum machines=YEAH! My parents gave me a Alesis drum machine, circa-'87, and i would play with the preset patterns. I still have the damn thing and at present: i program an 12 bar loop, quantized to 16th note values. The first 8 bars consist of= a ride cym. bell playin 1/4 notes, tambourines playing 8th notes, closed HH playing 16th's, and a triangle playing the upbeats. I start warming up/ shedding/playing time/learning new shit at 70 BPM's and increase the tempos whenever i feel like it,usually up to 205 BPMs. There is a swing function that's preset straight(on the view screen it says 50% value). But i ALWAYS bump the swing to 54% or 56%. This machine travels with me 2 the studio and this is my click reference for what ever project im recording. Depending on the song i may mix the individual click voicings higher. Eg:if we were aiming for an AC/DC type feel, then i mix my ride click the most predominate reference with the Tambourine voice just slighly quieter. every thing else is still heard but its more 'felt'.

-as a side bar to that a good recordist friend of mine asked if i wanted to try having the guitar take recorded first to my click reference/programming concept. Then try a drum take to the guitar part w.out the click in my cans. Well to my suprise i really really enjoyed that approach 2 layin down tracks, as it seemed to retain a very live feel.

-I utilize a mental 'encyclopedia' or a time/feel blueprint of drummers who i feel express time/feel in 4 different ways:

1)behind the 1/4 note- guys i feel that play this way would be Bonham, Roach, Gadd, Tommy Lee, Chad Smith, Klook, Smitty, Brain.......

2)dead center of a 1/4 note pulse(but not quite, if that makes any sense!!)- Chambers, Vinnie, Virg, Weckl, Smith, Erskine, Beauford,Carey, Jeremy Dillon, Theodore, both the Blade brothers,'Tain, Questlove,Phil Gould, my teacher Ray Garroway........i personally strive/believe that this expression is optimum thing i reach for.

3)ahead or pushing the 1/4 note-Tony, Copeland, Mitchell, Moon, Lombardo........

4)all the above- guys like Vinnie and errr, uh , ummmm well just Vinnie [img]wink.gif[/img]

I use this 'rolodex' to kind of police myself if im having a shitty drum day, or if im figuring out drum parts with my bands.

-i enjoy talking about concepts of instrument's parts within a song with the other instrumentalists. Unfortunately drummers seem 2 be the only semblence of intelligence and sensitivity about such pursuits.

-like Billy Ward said:'take mental snap shots of your limbs and movements when things feel good'. That along with a mirror beside me to reference movement has really immensley(sic) helped on SOOo many levels.

So sorry about the long windedness. I got some tips from your approaches and it can only help. Maybe u may see something here also.

.............peace.............beats

[sean b. tinio]

nice post beats [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] ....